Throttle not working

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IrishKat1
Beiträge: 24
Registriert: Fr 3. Okt 2014, 11:57

Throttle not working

Beitrag von IrishKat1 » Do 9. Feb 2017, 22:15

With the engine running and full air on the clock, the retarder light stays on and the throttle wont work. Earlier I emptied all air tanks and only when I drained air from the stop button, then was I able to start and and use the throttle to build air with the retarder light out and the engine running at over 1000 rpm, and once I left it run at under 500 rpm the light came back on and then no throttle. Hopefully one of the technical members will be able to advise me as to how to sort the problem.
IMAG0366.jpg

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A N D R E A S
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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von A N D R E A S » Fr 10. Feb 2017, 02:04

May be there are some electrcal problems with the solenoid for the stop switch left to the clutch pedal.

By the way: The light top left of the dash box is not the signal for the retarder, its the signal for the torque converter.
A N D R E A S

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Zentralgestirn
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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von Zentralgestirn » Fr 10. Feb 2017, 02:21

Hi there,

ok, i think you need an manual in english to understand all the tricky and very specific parts on the KAT. You bought a lorry with some wilful or lets say specialised solutions for offroad usage. Some of them are unique ;)

I think you mean the yellow light in the upper left corner. That light is the indicator light for the torque converter lock-up clutch. You have no retarder! The light must be on if the lorry stand still, the rpm differences between engine and gearbox is high or the engine rpm is under 1000rpm.
If the light is off, it means that the lock-up clutch is engaged. That happens when the engine rpm is 1000 or higher, there is appr. the same rpm on the gearbox like on the engine. If you use full throttle and the kick down button, than it will close later, at 1500rpm minimum.
That is the meaning of this yellow light.

Now to the point with the throttle.

First some words to understand the WSK clutch gearbox construction in total or a little bit better. The clutch is not capable to withstand the usage like a normale clutch in every normal vehicle without a torque converter. The correct driving procedure in short words: start the engine, push the clutch all the way down, chose a gear. for light lorrys under road conditions most of the time 3. gear. engage the clutch completely without grinding it. Sorry, this is maybe not the right term for it, but i hope you understand what i mean. Engage and disengage the clutch fast. Push the brake down, open the park brake, release the brake and push the throttle. No grinding clutch at any time! The clutch cost some several thousend EUR if i remember right and it´s a lot of work to replace it only for qualified workers, because you have to remove the torque converter. You need some special skills for doing this job otherwise you risk a capital damage of your torque converter wich is a expensive part. So treat it well and it will work well for a long time.
Ok, next step driving: To change gears, foot away from the throttle, push the clutch all the way down fast, shifting, no double clutch action needed (syncro mesh transmission), no throttle possible if the yellow light is on(throttle is now locked by the way ) slightly throttle if the yellow light is off, like in every car to shift smooth.
Stopping, use engine brake and brake, do not push the clutch while roll to a stop. Push the brake till you stand still, now push the clutch all the way down, chose a matching gear, release clutch fast, no grinding but not that fast that the paddle flips back ;)
go ahead.

That´s for the general now to your next problem.

The clutch is very small, not suitable for any grinding actions and very expensive.... The reason is, that you never need to use it like a normal clutch, only to disconnect the engine from the gearbox while shifting. For all other circumstances you have one of the best clutches in the world, the torque converter. That´s why the clutch is so weak. It will not last long if you treat her wrong, overheat her with grinding while routeing.

Against all the 200 pound gorillas out there, the smart engineers designet a securing device, the "Gaspedalsperre", i have no clue how to translate this very spezial german word. I will try it with throttle locking device. If the famous yellow light is on(torque converter lock-up clutch is disengaged), a gear is engaged and the clutch paddle is only slightly and up to completely pushed down, this devices will be activated. If you remove your foot from the clutch paddle you will use your throttle like normal. The electronic brain box does not know which gear is engaged. It has only a sensor for neutral. I will describe how it works if every thing is working well. If your lorry may have a different behavior, you can hopefully understand what is different and why or where to have a closer look.
So if you move the shift lever slightly away from neutral the electronic confuser will think there is a gear selected, same with the clutch. There is a pressure switch down at the hydraulic clutch slave cylinder. Is there only a little bit pressure in the line the confuser will think the clutch is disengaged. Remember, the throttle locking device will be activated when 3 conditions are fulfilled: clutch disengaged(pressure in the line), a gear is selected(shifting lever away from neutral) and the torque converter lock-up clutch is disengaged(yellow light is on). So when the lock-up clutch is engaged the throttle will work like in every other car.

Some words to the locking device it self. There is a pneumatic cylinder who blocks the throttle and the hand throttle. It is located at the bracket from the throttle cable at the injector pump. The rpm at idle should be 650+- a little bit. Not to low, otherwise the engine will shake to much and you will get some excessive wear on it. If the locking device is activated it has to be adjusted, that you never be pushed under 650rpm idle on any circumstances. Adjust it to an allowed minimum of 700 or 800rpm don´t be to excact with it. If the engine is cold, you need more throttle for idling like a warm engine. It has to prevent only not to give full throttle to the grinding clutch for the 200 pound gorillas ;) better some more rpm than not enough.

There are a lot of german people who didn´t know that important facts too or/and the throttle locking device is not working. And they can have easily access to the german manual but did´t read it. So no worries about that.

So i hope you understand what i tried to explain to you with my limited english skills.

Don´t hesitate to ask for any further questions. i will try to answer them.

BTW: This is a nice exercice for me. In my job i´m used to speak to not mother tongue english people in the most cases and not that much to write it. Only in my work reports for the customers. But there are not that much text in it like in this post and a lot of standard sentences are used.

Kind regards

Sebastian

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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von A N D R E A S » Fr 10. Feb 2017, 10:37

May be this will help you to understand the function. The MAN Kat 1 has the same system but without the retarder function.
The signal at the dashboard means "clutch open and torque converter running"
A N D R E A S

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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von A N D R E A S » Fr 10. Feb 2017, 10:40

Kann hier nicht mal einer, der bei der Geburtsstätte unser Fahrzeuge arbeitet, schauen, ob es die Bedienungsanleitung nicht auch in Inselsprache gibt?! Die Kanadier z.B. haben damals doch sicher soetwas bekommen.
A N D R E A S

IrishKat1
Beiträge: 24
Registriert: Fr 3. Okt 2014, 11:57

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von IrishKat1 » Fr 10. Feb 2017, 13:57

A N D R E A S hat geschrieben:May be there are some electrcal problems with the solenoid for the stop switch left to the clutch pedal.

By the way: The light top left of the dash box is not the signal for the retarder, its the signal for the torque converter.

Sorry my mistake by naming the light as a retarder when it should have been the torque converter.

IrishKat1
Beiträge: 24
Registriert: Fr 3. Okt 2014, 11:57

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von IrishKat1 » Fr 10. Feb 2017, 14:00

Zentralgestirn hat geschrieben:Hi there,

ok, i think you need an manual in english to understand all the tricky and very specific parts on the KAT. You bought a lorry with some wilful or lets say specialised solutions for offroad usage. Some of them are unique ;)

I think you mean the yellow light in the upper left corner. That light is the indicator light for the torque converter lock-up clutch. You have no retarder! The light must be on if the lorry stand still, the rpm differences between engine and gearbox is high or the engine rpm is under 1000rpm.
If the light is off, it means that the lock-up clutch is engaged. That happens when the engine rpm is 1000 or higher, there is appr. the same rpm on the gearbox like on the engine. If you use full throttle and the kick down button, than it will close later, at 1500rpm minimum.
That is the meaning of this yellow light.

Now to the point with the throttle.

First some words to understand the WSK clutch gearbox construction in total or a little bit better. The clutch is not capable to withstand the usage like a normale clutch in every normal vehicle without a torque converter. The correct driving procedure in short words: start the engine, push the clutch all the way down, chose a gear. for light lorrys under road conditions most of the time 3. gear. engage the clutch completely without grinding it. Sorry, this is maybe not the right term for it, but i hope you understand what i mean. Engage and disengage the clutch fast. Push the brake down, open the park brake, release the brake and push the throttle. No grinding clutch at any time! The clutch cost some several thousend EUR if i remember right and it´s a lot of work to replace it only for qualified workers, because you have to remove the torque converter. You need some special skills for doing this job otherwise you risk a capital damage of your torque converter wich is a expensive part. So treat it well and it will work well for a long time.
Ok, next step driving: To change gears, foot away from the throttle, push the clutch all the way down fast, shifting, no double clutch action needed (syncro mesh transmission), no throttle possible if the yellow light is on(throttle is now locked by the way ) slightly throttle if the yellow light is off, like in every car to shift smooth.
Stopping, use engine brake and brake, do not push the clutch while roll to a stop. Push the brake till you stand still, now push the clutch all the way down, chose a matching gear, release clutch fast, no grinding but not that fast that the paddle flips back ;)
go ahead.

That´s for the general now to your next problem.

The clutch is very small, not suitable for any grinding actions and very expensive.... The reason is, that you never need to use it like a normal clutch, only to disconnect the engine from the gearbox while shifting. For all other circumstances you have one of the best clutches in the world, the torque converter. That´s why the clutch is so weak. It will not last long if you treat her wrong, overheat her with grinding while routeing.

Against all the 200 pound gorillas out there, the smart engineers designet a securing device, the "Gaspedalsperre", i have no clue how to translate this very spezial german word. I will try it with throttle locking device. If the famous yellow light is on(torque converter lock-up clutch is disengaged), a gear is engaged and the clutch paddle is only slightly and up to completely pushed down, this devices will be activated. If you remove your foot from the clutch paddle you will use your throttle like normal. The electronic brain box does not know which gear is engaged. It has only a sensor for neutral. I will describe how it works if every thing is working well. If your lorry may have a different behavior, you can hopefully understand what is different and why or where to have a closer look.
So if you move the shift lever slightly away from neutral the electronic confuser will think there is a gear selected, same with the clutch. There is a pressure switch down at the hydraulic clutch slave cylinder. Is there only a little bit pressure in the line the confuser will think the clutch is disengaged. Remember, the throttle locking device will be activated when 3 conditions are fulfilled: clutch disengaged(pressure in the line), a gear is selected(shifting lever away from neutral) and the torque converter lock-up clutch is disengaged(yellow light is on). So when the lock-up clutch is engaged the throttle will work like in every other car.

Some words to the locking device it self. There is a pneumatic cylinder who blocks the throttle and the hand throttle. It is located at the bracket from the throttle cable at the injector pump. The rpm at idle should be 650+- a little bit. Not to low, otherwise the engine will shake to much and you will get some excessive wear on it. If the locking device is activated it has to be adjusted, that you never be pushed under 650rpm idle on any circumstances. Adjust it to an allowed minimum of 700 or 800rpm don´t be to excact with it. If the engine is cold, you need more throttle for idling like a warm engine. It has to prevent only not to give full throttle to the grinding clutch for the 200 pound gorillas ;) better some more rpm than not enough.

There are a lot of german people who didn´t know that important facts too or/and the throttle locking device is not working. And they can have easily access to the german manual but did´t read it. So no worries about that.

So i hope you understand what i tried to explain to you with my limited english skills.

Don´t hesitate to ask for any further questions. i will try to answer them.

BTW: This is a nice exercice for me. In my job i´m used to speak to not mother tongue english people in the most cases and not that much to write it. Only in my work reports for the customers. But there are not that much text in it like in this post and a lot of standard sentences are used.

Kind regards

Sebastian
Sebastian, I much appreciate what you have written here and over the weekend will take another look at the truck and will keep you posted. Regards, Sean

TraumKAT
Beiträge: 13
Registriert: Mi 25. Jan 2017, 18:28

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von TraumKAT » Mi 15. Feb 2017, 14:37

Sebastian wrote:
... device, the "Gaspedalsperre", i have ...
Best term might be: throttle lock out.
Your write-up was very enlightening to this newcomer... ;)

Regards
Andreas

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Zentralgestirn
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Registriert: So 1. Apr 2012, 14:49

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von Zentralgestirn » Mi 15. Feb 2017, 20:06

Hey Folks,

Sean, do you had success already? Did your Friend find the problem?

Thanks Andreas. Throttle lock out sounds god to me.

Best wishes

Sebastian

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special-mechanics
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Registriert: So 16. Jun 2013, 21:42

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von special-mechanics » Do 16. Feb 2017, 08:38

please disconnect the relais BD8 (behind the washerbottle).. the fault is already exist? no?
then you have a problem with the clutch signal switch
or the wire. please disconnect the switch (top of the gearbox, clutch actuator)... and check

you can permanently drive with disconnected BD8.
zitat : "Dann kann es also sein der KAT ist umgekippt obwohl er es theoretisch gar nicht hätte dürfen oder er ist nicht umgekippt obwohl er es hätte theoretisch müssen ?" HJL

TraumKAT
Beiträge: 13
Registriert: Mi 25. Jan 2017, 18:28

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von TraumKAT » Di 21. Feb 2017, 17:25

Excuse me if this is a stupid question. I am new to all of this and very interested.
Does the torque converter "short circuit" at some point, creating a fixed connection without the slip?

I am posting in English so as to not hi-jack this thread. Antwort gerne auch auf deutsch.

Thanks
Andreas

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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von A N D R E A S » Di 21. Feb 2017, 17:50

Yes,

this happens at 1500 - 2000 rpm and then the light of the "Wandlerschaltkupplung" at the dashboard is going off.
A N D R E A S

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special-mechanics
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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von special-mechanics » Di 21. Feb 2017, 21:35

A N D R E A S hat geschrieben:Yes,

this happens at 1500 - 2000 rpm and then the light of the "Wandlerschaltkupplung" at the dashboard is going off.
maybe ....


or 800 upm . :dance:
zitat : "Dann kann es also sein der KAT ist umgekippt obwohl er es theoretisch gar nicht hätte dürfen oder er ist nicht umgekippt obwohl er es hätte theoretisch müssen ?" HJL

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Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von A N D R E A S » Di 21. Feb 2017, 21:56

special-mechanics hat geschrieben:
maybe ....

or 800 upm . :dance:
When you have the "special mechanics electronics" 8-)
A N D R E A S

TraumKAT
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Registriert: Mi 25. Jan 2017, 18:28

Re: Throttle not working

Beitrag von TraumKAT » Fr 24. Feb 2017, 18:45

Thanks. Sounds like changing a resistor or capacitor or something.

Regards
Andreas

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