Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

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dnkx
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: Mo 6. Aug 2018, 02:16

Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von dnkx » Fr 10. Aug 2018, 01:14

deutsche Übersetzung unten

Hi im in new Zealand I don’t speak any german so will write this in English and also translate into german using google. To help the translation I will try to keep sentences short and try to use simple English words.

i have recently bought an 8x8 15t milglw a1 t truck with atlas ak3820m1 crane

I am having trouble with the crane. has anyone got a wiring diagram for the crane? or can someone look at their wiring ~ and confirm their wiring number codes for me??

truck vin number from plate in cab wma x 070049w013314
truck vin per chassis MAX070049W013314*T
crane ak3820m1 nr-125
baujahr 1989
vers. Nr 3830-12-309-4799
auftr-nr q/k22f/r8062


MY PROBLEM ~ the crane control computer is bypassing the hydraulic fluid for two of the circuits/functions. my crane wont extend the telescopic boom, and it wont raise or lower the top knuckle boom.

The problem is electrical. The problem relates to either
1. the wiring to the winch limit switches or
2. it is faulty limit switches.

I can force the crane functions to work by bypassing(bridge/short out) the “winch limit switch” wiring. Therefore the mechanical/hydraulic components are working

I have tried swapping(exchanging) the “telescopic boom extend limit switch” with one of the “winch limit switches”…. no change ~ crane still does not work.

POSSIBLE CAUSE OF PROBLEM
I think someone may have been playing with the wiring inside the junction box at the top of the boom(see picture for location). This junction box joins the wiring from the main control box behind the control panel at ground level (on right side of truck) to the wiring to the limit switches

Can someone please check their crane wiring and confirm the order of the 9 wires that enter the junction box (from the main control box at the bottom of crane)

*The wires that come into the junction box from the main control box are labelled 930/931/932 up to 968
*The wires that leave the junction and go to the limit switches are labelled 960/961/962 etc

Could someone please check their junction box and confirm what 93x numbers join which what 96x numbers

I assume that atlas would make the numbering ordered and easy to follow, example 930 to 960 935 to 965 and so on… but currently the wires do not follow that type of system.

My current wires are from left to right
1 930 to 960 boom extend limit switch
2 931 to 961 boom extend limit switch
3 -31 to -61 negative power / earth (battery - )
4 936 to 962 winch limit switch A
5 935 to 963 winch limit switch B
6 934 to 964 winch limit switch B
7 933 to 965 + 966 965= winch limit switch A 966= mercury tilt switch inside junction box
8 932 to 967 mercury tilt switch inside junction box
9 937 to 968 mercury tilt switch inside junction box

Winch limit switch A is the furthest one from crane boom
Winch limit switch B is the closest one to crane boom

I suspect someone has pulled wires off the 93x wiring side and put them back in the wrong order. I am guessing the wiring numbering should join in a more deliberate order (example 930/960 931/961 932/962 933/963 and so on…

Thanks in advance



Hallo im in Neuseeland Ich spreche kein Deutsch , so wird dies in Englisch schreiben und übersetzen auch in Deutsch mit Google. Um die Übersetzung zu erleichtern, werde ich versuchen, Sätze kurz zu halten und versuchen, einfache englische Wörter zu verwenden.
Ich habe kürzlich eine 8x8 15t milglw gekauft a1 t lkw mit atlas ak3820m1 kran
Ich habe Probleme mit dem Kran. Hat jemand einen Schaltplan für den Kran? Oder kann jemand auf ihre Verkabelung schauen ~ und ihre Kabelnummerncodes für mich bestätigen?

LKW vin Zahl von Platte in der Kabine wma x 070049w013314
LKW vin pro chassis MAX070049W013314 * T
Kran ak3820m1 nr-125
baujahr 1989
Vers . Nr. 3830-12-309-4799
auftr-nr q / k22f / r8062


MEIN PROBLEM ~ Der Kransteuercomputer überbrückt die Hydraulikflüssigkeit für zwei der Kreisläufe / Funktionen . Mein Kran wird den Teleskopausleger nicht verlängern, und er wird den oberen Ausleger nicht anheben oder absenken.
Das Problem ist elektrisch. Das Problem betrifft beides
1. die Verkabelung zu den Windenendschaltern oder
2. es sind fehlerhafte Endschalter .
Ich kann die Kranfunktionen zwingen , durch Umgehen (Brücke / Kurzschluss) , um die „Winsch Endschalters“ Verdrahtung zu arbeiten. Daher arbeiten die mechanischen / hydraulischen Komponenten
Ich habe versucht Swapping (e Xchanging) das mit einem der „Winsch Endschaltern“ ... „Teleskoparm Endschalters verlängern“. keine Änderung ~ Kran funktioniert immer noch nicht .

MÖGLICHE URSACHE DES PROBLEMS
Ich glaube , jemand in der Anschlussdose kann an der Spitze des Auslegers mit der Verkabelung gespielt hat (Bild für den Standort sehen). Dieser Anschlusskasten verbindet die Verdrahtung von der Hauptsteuerkasten hinter der Steuertafel am Boden (an der rechten Seite des LKW) auf die Verdrahtung zu den Endschaltern

Kann jemand bitte ihre Kranverdrahtung überprüfen und die Reihenfolge der 9 Drähte bestätigen, die in die Verteilerdose gelangen (von der Hauptsteuerbox an der Unterseite des Krans)?
* Die Drähte , die von der Hauptsteuerbox in die Anschlussdose gelangen sind mit 930/931/932 bis 968 gekennzeichnet
* Die Kabel, die die Verbindung verlassen und zu den Endschaltern gehen, sind mit 960/961/962 usw
Könnte jemand bitte ihre Verteilerbox überprüfen und bestätigen, welche 93x Nummern welche welche 96x Nummern beitreten
Ich nehme an, dass Atlas die Nummerierung geordnet und einfach zu folgen, Beispiel 930 bis 960 935 bis 965 und so weiter machen würde, aber zurzeit folgen die Drähte diesem Systemtyp nicht.
Meine aktuellen Kabel sind von links nach rechts
1 930 bis 960 Ausleger Endschalter
2 931 bis 961 Ausleger Endschalter
3 - 31 bis -61 negative Leistung / Masse (Batterie -)
4 936 bis 962 Windenendschalter A
5 935 bis 963 Windenendschalter B
6 934 bis 964 Windenendschalter B
7 933 bis 965 + 966 965 = Windenendschalter A 966 = Quecksilber-Neigungsschalter im Anschlusskasten
8 932 bis 967 Quecksilber-Neigungsschalter im Anschlusskasten
9 937 bis 968 Quecksilber-Neigungsschalter im Anschlusskasten

Der Windenendschalter A ist der am weitesten vom Kranausleger entfernte
Der Windenendschalter B kommt dem Kranausleger am nächsten

Ich vermute , dass jemand Drähte aus der 93x Verdrahtungsseite und setzt sie wieder in der falschen Reihenfolge gezogen hat. Ich schätze, die Nummerierung der Verkabelung sollte sich in einer bewussteren Reihenfolge einfügen (Beispiel 930/960 931/961 932/962 933/963 und so weiter ...)

Danke im Voraus
Dateianhänge
IMG_20180810_084158.jpg
IMG_20180810_084056.jpg
IMG_20180810_084035.jpg
IMG_20180720_082950.jpg

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Zentralgestirn
Beiträge: 1063
Registriert: So 1. Apr 2012, 14:49

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von Zentralgestirn » Fr 10. Aug 2018, 09:47

Hi,

at first, whats your name and a warm welcome to this forum.

I have no clue about your specific crane but for me it sounds like a clear problem to the overload protection. If it´s activatet you can do all functions to lower the crane but not to raise it. The simple reason is, not to get more load to the rig but to get it back to ground. In many cases there is a pressure switch, disconnect it and look if it will work now. The pressure switch will be located in the pressure line between the main ram from the boom and the valve body . Better you have a closer look for more devices like that.

I was working on bigger cranes like that, never on that smaller ones but they have a lot in Comen.

That´s it for a quick help, hopefully you will get the drawings, that will make it so much easier for you.

Hope you have quick success.

Sebastian

AndreasE
Beiträge: 1889
Registriert: Do 1. Nov 2012, 21:07

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von AndreasE » Fr 10. Aug 2018, 09:57

Hi dnkx, welcome in the KAT-Forum!
(As this is a relatively small community of enthusiasts around the MAN KAT family of trucks, we would appreciate real first names and a short introduction about and your truck so we know a bit more about our members, especially if they are so far away from the country of origin)

With regards to your questions:

The MAN KAT A1 mil glw 15t with rear mounted crane is a relatively rare example of the family. To our knowledge, only about 50 pieces have been built for the German Air Force and an even less number of these trucks are known to be sold to the private/civil market (most likely be below 10 to 15 pcs). Having said that, it is more difficult to get manuals and other technical diagrams for the truck specific parts of this KAT model versus other "mainstream" versions.

I can take a look at the wiring of my junction box on my crane when I am at the storage facility of my truck next time I will be there, but I don't have any electrical wiring diagrams of the AK3820M1 crane (for now. Still working on this)

cheers,
Andy

(Sebastian was faster :-) )

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Zentralgestirn
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Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von Zentralgestirn » Fr 10. Aug 2018, 10:04

AndreasE hat geschrieben:
Fr 10. Aug 2018, 09:57
..when I am at the storage facility of my truck next...

(Sebastian was faster :-) )
Made my day Andreas, that´s the only right term for it :lol: :lol: :lol: And who was faster doesn´t matter at all. ;)

dnkx
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: Mo 6. Aug 2018, 02:16

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von dnkx » Di 14. Aug 2018, 11:38

Zentralgestirn hat geschrieben:
Fr 10. Aug 2018, 09:47
Hi,


it sounds like a clear problem to the overload protection. If it´s activatet you can do all functions to lower the crane but not to raise it. The simple reason is, not to get more load to the rig but to get it back to ground. In many cases there is a pressure switch, disconnect it and look if it will work now. The pressure switch will be located in the pressure line between the main ram from the boom and the valve body . Better you have a closer look for more devices like that.


Sebastian
AndreasE hat geschrieben:
Fr 10. Aug 2018, 09:57


I can take a look at the wiring of my junction box on my crane when I am at the storage facility of my truck next time I will be there, but I don't have any electrical wiring diagrams of the AK3820M1 crane (for now. Still working on this)

cheers,
Andy
hi Sebastian and Andy

apologies for my late reply ~ things have been quite busy with work over the weekend

im Barney

as you have both replied in english i wont translate in to german to avoid adding complication

as noted in my first post im from new zealand. this KAT was supplied by l jacksons in the uk.

it was bought into new zealand for use on a construction project to do with establishing an irrigation network for farm land and pipe water in from the mountains down to the planes. the plan was for the KAT to deliver piping and other materials along the pipe route. for some reason the KAT never had very much work on this project and therefore has not had a lot of use (or wear) whilst in new zealand.

we are going to be outfitting the KAT as an off road recovery truck, to recover heavy machinery and vehicles in difficult to reach places.

Andy ~ the information regarding production numbers was interesting to know.

this KAT came with no documentation or user manuals. so in a future post i will be asking for some help on KAT specific topics like the correct way to use the clutch and torque converter, and what some of the dash switches do. we operate various other trucks so are familiar with the mechanics etc of trucks and how to operate them ~ we have just never had a KAT before :lol:



SEBASTIAN : yes this problem is to do with the overload protection.

the crane uses a mechanical overload protection system. the winch assembly is fitted inside a hub that can rotate. the hub must be spring loaded. when the hob roates it brings a metal arm closer to two limit switches. when the arm is close or touches the limit switches it activates the overload system and shuts down some of the crane functions.

i think the fault in the overload system is an electical one. because the wiring at the junction box appears to follow a random order. rater than a structured one. i have three limit switches, one is on telescopic boom extend and two are on the winch. i have tried swapping these around and have no change. i think it is unlikely that there would be more than one faulty limit switch out of these three unless they have been mechanically damaged (eg squashed) or electrically damage (because of incorrect wiring at the junction box)


ANDY: if you could check your crane and see what wiring you have in your cranes top junction box that would be very helpful. i imagine the electrical control system fitted to my crane will be very similar if not the same to a wide variety of atlas cranes with a similar configuration. and the general principles that atlas uses will carry over among other cranes.

as i have already said my gut feeling is that someone has been working on the wiring at the top junction. they may have pulled the wires off the junction and put them back in the wrong order (based on the 23x level numbers being in a different order than the 26x numbers. even if your crane doesn't have the same complete overload system it may have part of the overload system my one has which will enable me to isolate part of the problem (i am reluctant to try putting the wires in the order i think they should be in yet as i could harm the electronics inside the main junction box)

cheers Barney

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Zentralgestirn
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Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von Zentralgestirn » Di 14. Aug 2018, 13:03

Hey Barney,

for a comprehensive overload protection you need more than only the wire tension you found. In relation how much you extract the boom, the momentum on the rotating base will be increase or decrease. So you have to measure the pressure of the hydraulic cylinders. The big at the rear to swing it for and back or the two cylinders to raise or lower the boom will it be. Maybe the pressure sensor will be close to the valves or even in the valve body. Or there is an mechanical system. But im pretty shure that there will be more than only the wire tension. You can test the switches with an continuity checker. If it´s an normally closed switch you have to shorten the connection and if it´s an normally open switch you have to disconnect the switch to override the safety function. Look at the main electrical box, the cabels from the boom will end there and check it for damaged wires, broken and disconnected or shortened wires. Look at the cable numbers and what they connected to. Maybe you have a chance to understand the system without a wiring diagram. I know it´s a lot of hard work to go this way, but at the moment the only one you have. And be sure, i know what i´m talking about. Exactly this is my job...
If there is nothing else like lights ore power/data lines for other equipment you can attach, then open or shorten every, depending on NO or NC switches all connector in the junction box on the boom tip. If the problem still survive, that will be not your root cause.

The point why i´m telling you this, if Andreas has no documentation, the chance that no other user here has it is high. He is the amazing data collector here.

I cross my fingers for an easy solution for you

Sebastian

AndreasE
Beiträge: 1889
Registriert: Do 1. Nov 2012, 21:07

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von AndreasE » Di 14. Aug 2018, 23:24

Hi Barney,
thanks for the additional context.

The good thing is that your truck seems to be fitted with the standard crane the German Air Force ordered almost 30 years ago. Your VIN indicates that you don't have a prototype, but a version out of the normal production series. As my crane works flawlessly, comparison pictures might be a good start to reduce the error surface of your crane and get it back in working condition. I will be able to visit my truck in the next 2 days. Will send you pictures then.


Sebastian is right that the safety system has a dynamic component as well.


Let me go back and start the check list from the very beginning:
1) Did you turn on the hydraulic system in the drivers cabin on position I or II ? ("I" is normal operating procedure, "II" is emergency service only). For normal operation, it should be set on "I", never on "II". On "II", only downward operations are possible to get the crane back in transport position.

2) Can you see any warning lights on the main operator box on the crane? Especially, is the light with the title "Überlast Moment" turned on or off? If this light is turned on, than the crane electronics does not allow the boom to lifted or extended, you can only lower the boom, or retract the elements of the boom (except the first segment).

Here is the main operator box on the crane with a translation of the german terms:
Main operator Box.JPG
Lights:
"Überlast Winde" = overload winch. Only extending the winch cable is possible, lifting is not possible while this light is turned on.
"Überlast Moment" = overload load moment (weight x distance from base)
"Ablagestellung" = this light is turned on, when the crane is in final transport position
"Anlage Ein" = crane electric system is turned on
"> 45 Grad" = this light is turned on, while the boom is above an articulation of 45 degrees. (Lifting a weight at weight limit of 3500kg while the boom is above 45 degrees, increases the load momentum, while the boom is lowered as the distance to the crane base increases). Hence this warning light
"Ablage ein" = Final position system is turned on

Buttons:
"Anlage Ein = Turn on crane system
"Teleskoparm heben bei Überlast" - overriding maximum load on momentum. pressing this button allows the operator to do an boom lift under emergency conditions
"Ablage Ein" = Turning on system
"Not-Aus" = Emergency off (and main button for turning crane electric system off)


rgds,
Andy

AndreasE
Beiträge: 1889
Registriert: Do 1. Nov 2012, 21:07

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von AndreasE » Do 16. Aug 2018, 01:44

Hi Barney,
here is the cable layout of the connection box.

The box:
Crane connection box.jpg
The cable layout:
Crane Connection Box cables.JPG
The following cables are leaving the box via the 4 cable connectors (color coded in the picture)

Upper right connector (Green):
962
965
31 (located in 2. row)

Lower right connector (Red):
963
964
31 (located in 3.row)

Bottom connector (Blue):
960
961
31 (located in 1. row)

left connector to main box (Yellow):
all cables in 4. row

The 3 green cables are all connected to the mercury circle.

Hope that helps,
Andy

dnkx
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: Mo 6. Aug 2018, 02:16

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von dnkx » Fr 17. Aug 2018, 01:31

Zentralgestirn hat geschrieben:
Di 14. Aug 2018, 13:03
Hey Barney,

for a comprehensive overload protection you need more than only the wire tension you found. In relation how much you extract the boom, the momentum on the rotating base will be increase or decrease. So you have to measure the pressure of the hydraulic cylinders. The big at the rear to swing it for and back or the two cylinders to raise or lower the boom will it be. Maybe the pressure sensor will be close to the valves or even in the valve body. Or there is an mechanical system. But im pretty shure that there will be more than only the wire tension. You can test the switches with an continuity checker.

Sebastian
Hi Sebastian

i understand what you are talking about regarding a dynamic overload.

so far i have been focused on the wiring issue and have not paid any attention to the dynamic system.

i have not seen any pressure switches on the valve block that may be part of a dynamic overload based on hydraulic pressure~ but have not really looked for these either.

there is some kind of sensor inside the pin of the hydraulic ram that tilts the lower section of the crane knuckle boom (ie the lower part of the boom closest to the slew ring). i think this sensor is probably a load cell. so perhaps this is the dynamic overload sensor (ie it uses mechanical force on the lifting ram rather than hydraulic pressure in the dynamic system)

so i will look more closely at what components relate to the dynamic overload system

dnkx
Beiträge: 4
Registriert: Mo 6. Aug 2018, 02:16

Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von dnkx » Fr 17. Aug 2018, 02:04

AndreasE hat geschrieben:
Do 16. Aug 2018, 01:44
Hi Barney,
here is the cable layout of the connection box.


Andy
Hi Andy

thank you for sending that information. your wiring at this junction is the same as mine. so i will now look at the dynamic system as per Sebastians suggestions.


AndreasE hat geschrieben:
Di 14. Aug 2018, 23:24

Let me go back and start the check list from the very beginning:
1) Did you turn on the hydraulic system in the drivers cabin on position I or II ? ("I" is normal operating procedure, "II" is emergency service only). For normal operation, it should be set on "I", never on "II". On "II", only downward operations are possible to get the crane back in transport position.

2) Can you see any warning lights on the main operator box on the crane? Especially, is the light with the title "Überlast Moment" turned on or off? If this light is turned on, than the crane electronics does not allow the boom to lifted or extended, you can only lower the boom, or retract the elements of the boom (except the first segment).

Here is the main operator box on the crane with a translation of the german terms:
Main operator Box.JPG
Lights:
"Überlast Winde" = overload winch. Only extending the winch cable is possible, lifting is not possible while this light is turned on.
"Überlast Moment" = overload load moment (weight x distance from base)
"Ablagestellung" = this light is turned on, when the crane is in final transport position
"Anlage Ein" = crane electric system is turned on
"> 45 Grad" = this light is turned on, while the boom is above an articulation of 45 degrees. (Lifting a weight at weight limit of 3500kg while the boom is above 45 degrees, increases the load momentum, while the boom is lowered as the distance to the crane base increases). Hence this warning light
"Ablage ein" = Final position system is turned on

Buttons:
"Anlage Ein = Turn on crane system
"Teleskoparm heben bei Überlast" - overriding maximum load on momentum. pressing this button allows the operator to do an boom lift under emergency conditions
"Ablage Ein" = Turning on system
"Not-Aus" = Emergency off (and main button for turning crane electric system off)


rgds,
Andy
i was able to get the hydraulic system working prior to my original post ...

truck running with air system fully charged,
turn hydraulic system on using the i position of toggle switch (ie up as you noted) ~ no lights on drivers dashboard yet
go to crane operator box and pull big red switch out to power system
press left hand button (anlage ein) ~ all lights on operator box light up for a second or two, probably system test. can now hear hydraulic fluid circulating. the hydraulic pump light on drivers dash board turns on. and the two left hand lights on crane operator panel on.

at this point no functionality on crane

press centre buttom (heben bei Überlast) on operator control panel ~ nothing happens

press right hand button (Ablage Ein) on operator panel both green lights above switch turn on. crane can 1. lift winch up and down, 2. rais and lower ram on lowest part of knuckle boom, 3 slew/turn crane left and right, 4. can retract telescopic boom but cannot extend/slide out. FUNCTIONS NOT WORKING A. cant extend telescopic boom B. cant lift or lower the upper section on the knuckle boom.

now that the left and right lights are on (ie 4 lights) press the centre switch (heben bei Überlast) no change.

by passing the overload system and tricking crane into working i can get the centre button to work and lights come on (i cant rem,ember what functionality happened but the boom 45 degree tilt indicator worked as you described) with boom tilted up etc ~ therefore it appears the control panel is functioning and when i tricked the system into working the two centre lights are also doing what they should be doing.

so my next avenue is to look at the dynamic side of the system. i will look into this and no doubt be asking some more questions shortly :think:

thanks for taking the time to look at your junction and post the wiring codes and also the other information you posted above.

cheers

barney

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Zentralgestirn
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Re: Help re Atlas crane wiring ~ Hilfe Re Atlas Verkabelung

Beitrag von Zentralgestirn » Di 21. Aug 2018, 00:45

Hi Barney,

I would say you are right with the load cell in the pin of the ram. That is the more cool precice methide and much more expensive one. I can't say anything how to measure it. Sorry, but if you find any lable on it try to figure out which manufacturer and type it is and we will see if I can help you to figure out how to test the load cell. I would guess that is a variable resistance from the DMS stripe. Or there is one with a electronic inside Wich produces a current, in most industrial cases 0-20mA.

Another easy thing to measure, if I'm right, you have proportional valves Wich are electrically controlled. Try to measure a voltage on the solenoids while operating the not working functions. Maybe you only have two broken solenoids or wires. That's easy to do.

Sebastian

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